I always just figured GNOME was first because ‘G’ comes before ‘K’ in the alphabet. I think that if all the offered desktops are listed in alphabetically order then it really just seems to me like that’s way they are presented and not that one is preferred over the other.

I know this isn’t likely to be a popular comment, but frankly, just pick _one_ and make the others available later. The whole idea of giving someone a choice at that point really sucks, and someone new to the OS who doesn’t know the difference between those options isn’t given any help whatsoever by that screen. Someone who does know the difference is likely savvy enough to pick the right install media or pick the right boot option or something similar.

I’m a huge GNOME user, but I imagine most SUSE users aren’t, so pick KDE 3.5 and release with that. Make a simple desktop switcher/installer for the people who care and have done, seriously.

I too think G comes before K so just alphabetize and be done with it. I like McCartney more than Lennon but don’t mind that they are always referred to as Lennon and McCartney. As Beatles, I didn’t care, it was all good. Post-Beatles, I just liked listening to what McCartney did more than Lennon though I give Lennon credit for continuing to push the envelope - just wasn’t my thing.

Ironically that analogy carries through to Linux desktops well beyond name ordering. I still like the KDE desktop better than Gnome but I much prefer the Gnome Applets, Apps and integration so I find myself installing with Gnome and not really remembering what I miss about KDE every time now.

I generally agree with Alex H, but since that’s not going to happen, keep the current setup. GNOME is certainly preferred to KDE 4, and having the list go GNOME, KDE, KDE makes more sense than KDE, GNOME, KDE. I actually think it’s a little irresponsible to include KDE 4 as a choice.

But a user really shouldn’t have to make this decision when they install openSUSE. How are they supposed to pick? It’s 2008 already. Follow the Ubuntu/Kubuntu model and have multiple spins, or include both on the disc but pick *some* default, and let advanced users have an advanced screen where they can pick between desktop environments.

By the way, your spam protection chokes with “internal server error” if I enter “seven” instead of “7″ as my response to “sum of three + four”. I’m not sure where to report this so I’m just commenting it here.

Sorry to leave yet another comment…I thought the choices were given in this order: GNOME, KDE3, KDE4, but I now see that the order is GNOME, KDE4, KDE3. Hopefully that clears up any confusion while reading my first comment.

I’m very surprised that KDE4 is recommended over KDE3, especially given the descriptive text.

I violently disagree with the option of “just pick _one_ and make the others available later”. The newbies Alex hopes to coddle by this method would have no clue how to get back to the point of installing an others later. Non Newbies would have no problem making a selection or two.

BY ALL MEANS: go to check boxes. Allow multiple choice.

There is more to functionality than appearance, but in spite of that, how bout a “See Sample” button by each choice showing a static screen shot if each choice.

If the install partition seems to have lots of room, maybe add another “I’m feeling phat” button which installs them all.

And don’t short change XCE4. By all means add it to the list.

I do agree that checkboxes are definitely preferred. But please do keep kde4 … i for one want it default

oops … i meant default on my _laptop_ only

all suse, opensuse, novell survey show that the majority of suse, opensuse… user use kde… so why don’t put kde like the default desktop?
i think it should be the default desktop

I wish openSUSE would be GNOME ONLY distro, also without Xgl (Compiz only) and would directly competite with *buntu.

how about not using the logos, but real screen shots of the desktop… I imagine my wife installing openSuse. She has no clue that she uses KDE, not even which version (in fact 3.5). If she saw a screen shot of the choices she could very easily decide which to install. One image is worth a thousand words.

And to answer the political question of gnome or kde and in which order… randomize the order, everyone happy.

Maybe you could use the descriptions from wikipedia to be added to the HELP button.

I agree with comment just above.
A screenshot can really do the difference for a newbie.

Just use the first part of the screen for the checkbox selection, and the second for the screenshot (with some app, menu, …) and a little description.

Greeting’z,

Personally I’m a dedicated KDE user, and will prefer 3.5.x, until I feel 4.x is ‘ready for me’,
but sometimes I do use Gnome, and the others like Xfce, and IceWM, and would be satisfied with
all of them listed Alphabetically, and with Check boxes.

However, I have my own suggestion: that a customized and very light weight ‘openSuSE Exclusive’
interface be created (using what ever ui toolkit the installer is built with), that provides an
basic gui for the ‘first boot’ similar to the gui’s used with OLPC’s Sugar, or the EEEPC’s default ui,
Themed to match the Installer, and having ‘Quick Access’ icons/buttons for the most important actions,
it should look good and be usable with even the most basic X config such as a generic vesa(card & monitor)
@640×480x8bpp, (and of course look even better with higher resolution).

This interface should provide access to the these essentials:
the “Release Notes”, the “openSuSE Manual” (which should be installed with the base OS),
an “Install Additional applications” (a sortcut to the YaST Software Management module)
and most importantly the main YaST interface, and an XTerm (for the Advanced users)
all as ‘quick-launch’ icons/buttons (ie: no menu’s to dig through),
and additionally maybe a ‘quick-install’ icon for each of the big DE’s
‘installation pattern’s’ (ie: Gnome, kde(*), xfce, etc..),
After the Base Install, this UI would load, along with the “Second Stage Installer”
to finish the install.

The main idea being to just get the Base system installed as fast as possible, then boot into and prove the working install,
and then load a basic gui to do the other install, and configure tasks.

In this way, the Base install is rather Neutral, and only provides the “Foundation to build on”,
allowing the user to fully customize the system to there needs, rather then forcing them to install
a large chunk of stuff all at once (some of which they may not even want), or sit there digging though
the package selections for there favorite applications before they even have a functional installation.

I hope this gives a little food for thought.

Zarantu

+1 for checkboxes and screenshots (applications and menu open, full screen with click). And some help text (e. g. first time after login, or in the login manager until the user tells it not to open any more) about changing the desktop in the graphical login manager.

I would strongly caution against making anything default. My favorite aspect of OpenSUSE is an has always been an installer which provides lots of options upfront, while providing sensible defaults. I would love the idea of having XFCE added to the list, and the use of check boxes. It seems like the size of each environment might be relevant too, so that people know where all their disk space went when they choose them all.

Definitely need a lighter desktop there, and XFCE is my choice for that. For more typical users, KDE 3.5 and Gnome - KDE 4 isn’t ready yet. And have screenshots available for newbies.

I don’t like Gnome because of Nautilus, I could use either Konqueror or Thunar as file manager well but don’t like Nautilus, other than that I wouldn’t mind Gnome. Of course, each may have his own opinion … if I were trying to pick a desktop today I’d want to see a picture of the desktop along with the menu and standard file manager.

Order? Alphabetical is fine, as long as the noobs can have some idea what they are getting into I don’t think it matters.

I think each desktop option should include a serries of screenshots to help undecided users choose which desktop they’d like. I like the “I’m feeling lucky” idea.

KDE 4 ought to be taged like “experimental” so newcomers will not be confused.

Non aware users will typically think KDE4 is the way to go while KDE3.5 is there just for compatibility reasons and will install 4.x. Then they will notice KDE4 is buggy and get a wrong impression of the KDE staff that can be really harmful (not only for KDE but also for GNOME and Linux, since newcomers doesn’t distinguish the OS from the GUI and they will probably think Linux, not just KDE 4, is unstable).

The order doesn’t really matter, the circular scheme does look kind of cool, it would be good to see a proper layout of that.
There should be choice to install multiple desktops, maybe two boxes by each one so that a default can be selected, then all the others as secondary if required.
It would also be good to have screen shots and information about each desktop available. Maybe have a separate window appear with a slideshow or something if the user hovers the mouse over a selection.

This would be the order i’d like to see:
1. KDE3 (because it is the best environment and the most popular Suse desktop)
2. Gnome

then a heading of Experimental (or more flattering wording)
3. KDE4 (as 4.1 would released after opensuse 11.0)

This will allow non-experienced users to pick a stable desktop easily and also allow for the knowledgeable to select KDE4. There were enough problems explaining the reason for the 4.0 release to some of the “knowledgeable”.

I like the idea of being able to select multiple desktops during installation (checkbox vs radial dial) -

As far as priority - my suggestion is to have a thumbnail picture which displays an example of the “best” of what each desktop has to offer - and let the user choose from there. Better yet, let them click on the thumbnail (during the install) and see more - larger example of how that desktop will look!!

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers,
R.Fox

The screen shot idea is def. a very good one. I think it’s best to arrange in a vertical list, with check boxes, but nothing pre-selected. While it may be good to have the other desktops listed, I do think they should be small items on the lists, a drop down or an advanced option or something. Generally, unless someone has prior knowledge of Linux they would be using KDE or Gnome. I do worry it could quite quickly become aesthetically displeasing and confusing if we spend too much time focusing on making it 100% even. As for which is default when you install more than one, perhaps have one page with radio buttons allowing you to select your default desktop and then a check box down the bottom labeld “Install multiple desktops”. Once the user has selected their default desktop, then if they have selected the check box, when they click ‘next’, they’ll be given another page, similar to the first, minus their selected default desktop, and with check boxes. The lesser user desktops should definitely be hidden in the default desktop selection screen (maybe have a “Show advanced desktops” drop down arrow to show the rest on the first page, but show by default if they select to have other desktops.

It’s becoming more about the apps than the specific WM. I run xfce cause it’s lightning fast, but load almost all kde apps, with a few gtk/gnome exceptions. I like to pick and choose the apps, and use the fast and flexible desktop to load them. XFCE loads KDE and Gnome apps way faster then their native WM

I agree with choice: Gnome, KDE,XFCE, and Traditional (FVWM2, E, etc), which I still use on ancient hardware.
Also agree with checkboxes; while I’ve settled on KDE, for a while (years ago), I had everything in, and tried each, gradually eliminating options. I think KDE4 should be labeled experimental or beta.

Finally, and off topic, I hope the team eliminates Mono from being a requirement in the base install, as well as not installing software for hardware not detected (examples:bluetooth, IrDa, Firewire,etc).

I’ve seen some comments for “randomize” the options. Please do not do this. Explain to a newbie over the phone or through a script that says “pick the second choice” would be worthless. As simple as it seems to tell them to pick KDE 3.5, it often isn’t that simple and having it change from time to time would be confusing.

Personally I think that only KDE 3.5 and Gnome should be highly visible options (although personally I want KDE 4) and that others including KDE 4, XFCE, etc. should be put into an “advanced” selection that is clearly not for newbies but is easily accessible to anyone who cares.

And checkboxes. Most definitely checkboxes!!

McCartney! Definitely! Lennon’s far over rated.

I started with Debian and I assumed multiple desktops were the Linux way. Times have moved on.
I do prefer KDE, but Gnome is stable & more minamilistic.
I would like to see both installed, or failing that, screen shots as mentioned, or even video clips, maybe showing OpenOffice.org Writer startup (Flash say).
Linux is meant to be about choice, so both would be good (maybe DVD only can support).

andere?

I think we should NOT have a default BUT use some sort of sub-title to the choice page describing exactly what some people are already talking about. Lets inform the user that there is not default and that the openSuSe experience will be great with whatever DE they select. This remove the ambiguity that openSuSe has a preference towards a specific DE.

From the point of view of providing the most choice, supporting all the major desktop environments is best. But I tend to believe in the saying “jack of all trades, master of none”, and that when a distro concentrates on one desktop, they do a better job with it by concentrating all their attention and resources in the one area rather than diluting them.

I imagine now that Novell owns Suse, they will swing towards the American desktop (Gnome) rather than the European one (KDE).

Screenshots, definitely screenshots! That was my first thought when I saw the desktop selection screen - I always keep trying to ’sell’ Linux to my (newbie and not-so-newbie) friends, and after I convinvce them to use openSuSE (as everyone is talking Ubuntu apparently), there always comes the question of the destkop environment - and I find myself telling people more and more, ‘just play around with my laptop and see how they look’. So yes, first impressions matter, and matter a lot.

Also, comming back to Beineri’s’ question above (”What should they show?”), I don’t think that’s too difficult. Let’s just show people the default desktops, with some applets in the tray and one or two windows open to see the decorations (and not on a thumbnail, not at all - why not have a “click here to enlarge” button?) - because, and that’s another thing I feel strongly about, the defaults are, for a newbie, the settings they will most probably use all along, and for an experienced user, a means for evaluating the distro/DE overall (that’s my yardstick for distros - if your defaults suck, you haven’t paid attention to details, and I don’t want to use your product; that’s, for me, the point where both Gnome and Ubuntu fail, and openSuSE shines; but so much for a sidenote). Besides, I really think that Gnome/KDE3/KDE4 are so distinct from each other that even a cursory glance will show each one’s uniqe characteristics.

As for the checkboxes/radios question, that’s a no-brainer for me, I can’t understand why there were radios there in the first place.

As for the ordering of the environments, the circular design is surely a solution, but I don’t know whether it will look professional enough (maybe a deficiency of my imagination, really). And is this such an important matter after all? I personally use KDE4 daily without any looking back at KDE3, and I wouldn’t consider it very much ‘experimental’ any more - surely, compared to KDE3 it’s still not as complete, but is perfectly suitable for day to day tasks. However, enthusiastic about it as I am, I still wouldn’t mind it being the last choice on the list, so I’m not sure if that dilemma is worth dying for.

Instead of listing the desktop choices in alphabetical order, what about listing them in order of current openSUSE popularity? Right now, that would be
1. KDE 3.5.x
2. GNOME
3. ?
4. ?
etc.

Potential Benefits
1. There would then be incentive for less popular DE’s to work at becoming more popular.
2. Newbies picking the 1st choice, because they do not know any better, would be picking the one they would be most likely to receive help from (since it is currently the most popular).

Regarding Previous Suggestions/Comments
+1 for check boxes
+1 for good descriptions of each DE (although I do not know what those descriptions should be)

Greeting’z,

After returning and reading the new comments, and rereading my previous
suggestion, I put together this composite idea.

First, my suggestion of using something like Sugar, or the EEEPC’s UI
was just to form a quick mental image, actually what I didn’t write was
that perhaps it could skip X11 entirely, and use Quingy instead:
( I used it on an LFS system a couple years
ago, and it worked very well, mouse driven, frame buffer GUI, that works like
xdm/etc, I had it setup to do console CLI/MUI, as well as start X11 with or
without the DM, I used KDM, to get multi-session, the nice User list, XDMCP,
and “click to switch sessions” ).

This stage of the install should be renamed to “User Interface Configuration”
and it’s features built as a YaST module ( so you could easily change the UI
setup anytime with a ‘YaST [UIC | UserInterafaceConfig]‘ ).

Divide it into 2 sections:
In the top section, 3 radio buttons under the Title: “Select your Primary User
Interface Style”
1> Text mode Only ( no Graphical System will be Installed ).
2> openSuSE’s Slick custom designed interafce ( uses the hardware FrameBuffer
for Graphical display ) .
3> Graphical Desktop Enviroment ( uses the Xorg X11 system, and the Desktop of
your choice ).

The Default should be no. 2, of course.
(kinda forces the user to Think about the choice a little more, ok,
actually it should be no. 3).

When option 3 is selected the middle section shows the GUI choices,
inittialy it could show a picture of the Console/Shell for option 1,
and a screen shot of the second options interface ( Quingy ? ).

When the third option is selected the bottom section shows:
At the top a Pull Down Menu, pre-selected for “Standard Desktop Enviroments”
( the other option’s being: “Traditional X11 Window Managers” (ie. twm, fvwm,
*box, etc.. ), and “Experimental, and Developer Focused” (ie. KDE 4.x,
Gnome ?Dev Ver., and that ‘custom idea’), perhaps also a “I Want it All”
option, for those with a shiny new 1TB HDD to fill up ).

The List should have 3 colums: on the left side a ‘Check Box’, in the middle the
Desktop Name, with a brief description and version number, and the approximate
installed size, on the right side, a Thumbnail of the desktop.
The list should just be shown in Alphabetical order.

Below the list a highlighted caption with an arrow pointing at the thumbnails
colum, “Click on a Thumbnail for a Detailed Overview”,

When a thumbnail is clicked a new screen is shown that has at the top:
the name, version, size, and a paragraph of descriptive text,
below in an inset a larger version of the thumbnail, with a set of buttons
across the top (from left to right: Beginning, back, play, forward, last)
the “play” starts a ‘Slide Show’, the others just page through a series of
’screen shots’ of the DE, and Popular Apps.
at the bottom of the screen a “go back to selection screen” button.

Perhaps this screen could be divided into Tabs, the others being: a list of the
packages included, a review from some 3rd party author, a list of sponsors or
‘big name’ installs ?

A possible extra: when more then one DE is selected, an option appears below the
list with a pull down menu “Select Your Default Desktop” with “None”
Preselected, when a DE is selected it is set as the default choice in the
‘Display Manager’ for all logins.

Might it also be possible at choose which DM to install, if only selecting one
DE the default is that DE’s DM, but what does Xfce, or an old school WM get
XDM only ?, Iv’e heard of some people who use Gnome but want KDM, or use KDE
and want GDM, or perhaps you want a ‘Console Login’ only ( runlevel 3 )
from the beginning.

More thoughts to ponder..
( and please excuse the length )

Zarantu

why not add a screenshot for each de?

The design of that screen is just fine in my opinion.

If you want to go back to the discussion of why Ubuntu has so many users, it’s probably because of the installation program. No doubt about it, SUSE is much easier to use and much more preferable in my opinion. But unfortunately, most people don’t know what file systems are or what partitioning is. And when it comes to selecting a desktop environment, that’s another point of confusion for Micros**t Windows users. Keep in mind, we’re talking about attracting Windows users. There’s a joke that asks the question: How many Windows users does it take to install an operating system? If it’s Ubuntu, only one because it’s easier to install than Windows.

Not like there’s anything wrong with the installation program, it’s a great program. But this could easily lead to another discussion about whether it would be better if SUSE customers could compare the desktops on the packaging and make the decision before purchasing support. They could buy SUSE with the KDE desktop, or SUSE with the Gnome desktop, and have manuals and online resources tailored specifically for those users - which already exist. So putting the pieces together would not be difficult, I guess. Anything that would simplify the installation would have more people installing it for sure.

Ah, better yet!

How about an installation screen that tells the user what the program is with a warning that it will install an operating system with a next button. Then it would request Regional and Language settings, along with the User Name, Password, and Product ID (if applicable), and a next button. And at the bottom of the screen, it would say “Press F7 for Custom Installation (Advanced Users Only).” The next screen would be an installation summery screen with the option to change partitioning, or the destination of the installation, and an “Install” button at the bottom. The install program would do the rest for the user, and any other configuration changes would be made in a window that launches on the desktop after the OS is loaded.

That would be just about perfect!

More than just screen shots, I think there should be a small video clip demonstrating the differences between the desktop environments. It could be a 5-10 second clip of the desktop starting up, showing the menu, opening the file browser, and basically showing the distinctions between the environments to make it apparent which is which for someone who is unsure.
I don’t think checkboxes should be included at this point, but it should make a note that one can choose to install more desktop environments later on in the installation.
I also think openSUSE should theme and include XFCE as an option later on in the future, because that is one nice and light environment.

Just release a gOpenSUSE and a kOpenSUSE, remove the install choice, improve the clarity. Circular GUI items are crap and not HIG compliant for that matter, but mostly it’s crap.